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This forum is primarily for the discussion of developing monetary systems like Digital Coin, but also existing alternative and mainstream monetary systems past & present. It should be used thoughtfully to both present and study such systems in an open, objective, and active manner. Please leave your politics at the door. Those coming to grandstand or otherwise play politics, will be removed. Stick to the facts and reference all that you are able.

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Author Topic: Does it create actual money?  (Read 1609 times)
gumby
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« on: December 18, 2009, 11:04:22 PM »

I have a question about the videos I watched. If you are lent 10 dollars and you pay back said monies, doesn't that actually create 10 more dollars into the total wealth if the economy? That is something I have been confused about. If the transaction has no default, then it seems like there are 10 more real dollars in the world.

  I am not trying to stir the pot, I loved your videos... I am just trying to get a better understanding of that point.

  I have been imagining an island that only has one resource and a fixed amount of money, and it seems like the transaction does in fact create money into the economy, but with a finite amount of resources, it only diluted the value of the money overall since there are only a set amount of actual goods. (20 dollars represents all the resources now instead of the 10 dollars, so in essence, the money now has half the buying power)

 So that is my point of confusion. If money on a simple island represents 100% of the wealth, then it is a matter of percentages and not really dependent at all on how much "money" there is. (call it 10 dollars, call it 10,000,000,000,000 dollars, it still represents all the tings you can buy)   So if my logic is correct on this point, then it's frightening to imagine how tiny a percentage the common man is left with now a days.

  Whomever responds, Thank you for your time....
 
  Gumby
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Jordan
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« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2009, 09:58:30 PM »

Your question is directed at Paul, but I don't think he gets on here all that often so I'll have a go. Neither of us are too snappy around here I'm afraid   Undecided

Quote
If you are lent 10 dollars and you pay back said monies, doesn't that actually create 10 more dollars into the total wealth if the economy? That is something I have been confused about. If the transaction has no default, then it seems like there are 10 more real dollars in the world.

So a bank lends you $10?  If so and presuming you refer to the methods modern banks use, then yes $10 lent is new bank credit (not technically money but treated as such) pumped into the economy. If you leave the credit on deposit or deposit it into another bank that can create a multiplier effect allowing more bank credit to be issued (it's not as simple as that, but hypothetically possible). Generally loans made in such a pyramid system cause an expansion of the economy. Such expansion creates jobs and uses more energy and natural resources.

Because of this expansion inflation's effects aren't so easily detected by all people equally. Nevertheless there is some inflation, until there is a shortage of energy or raw material inputs needed to keep the pyramid's base expanding out Or (what usually happens) when the central banks increase interest rates too rapidly which causes subordinate banks to contract their lending.  This contraction of lending causes a problem because people are always repaying their debts to the banks and they are repaying not just the loaned principle, but also the unloaned interest.

In an expanding economy the pyramid is growing and the amount of new principle being issued is greater than the combined principle plus interest being repaid.  When the banks contract lending too much, this equation goes out of balance -if minor, it's called a recession, if severe enough to cause an economic retraction, it is called a depression. - Note that the central banks will have some very good idea about what will happen to the economy BEFORE it happens - such foreknowledge if put to use would be utterly criminal.  But I digress. . .

Actually I think I've digressed way too much. . .lemme see. Yes there is some inflation from the loan of ten dollars, however it's not as much as you might think because the economy is expanding too and the supply of goods services and energy is thus expanded, so more money but also more stuff, hence actual inflation is moderated.

As to the effects on inflation when the loan is repaid, it depends on the overall expansion/contraction rate of bank credit and the supply of goods services and energy. - It's just not very simple!  As you can see there are many complicating factors.

I think the real issue for the average person may be the global nature of the economy and the restrictions in energy that may lie immediately ahead (peak oil has been likely happened and we will shortly be going down the other side of the curve).  While the economy has expanded greatly over the last century, the available supply of goods and services has expanded with it.  So even as the money supply has grown dramatically, the average person can still buy some of what they once were able to buy.  Mind you, not all goods can grow at equal rates.  As energy scarcity takes hold - assuming those polywell fusion reactors don't come online soon Grin  - then the supply of goods and services will necessarily dry up even if the money supply grows. This will then necessarily lead to hyperinflation. If the banks curtail new loans and the money supply contracts, it will make little ultimate difference, only slowing the decline.   Cry     Bad times are likely on the horizon. 

Okay I'm digressing again. Hopefully I've answered at least some of your question. . .if not, feel free to ask again   Cheesy


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« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2010, 06:41:15 PM »

If you are lent 10 [new] dollars and you pay back said monies, doesn't that actually create 10 more dollars into the total wealth if the economy?

Semantically, it adds 10 dollars to the currency float or "money supply", but "wealth" is more subjective.   If you just stole it from Peter, e.g. you obviously haven't increased net wealth.
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BBq
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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 08:26:44 PM »

I dunno - but the first thoughts I have are that the issuance is against the future so you are being lent money (so to say) and are buying into the future for the convenience of right now - and as a whole over time being taxed by inflation as well as the interest that you agreed to pay. 

The main thing is that is it worth it or is there a better way & not to have the real value hidden in equations rather than exact amounts that seem to stay the same but mean something different in the future. 

And whether its right or OK to put this on future generations.  You borrow from the future to pay the present which does come at a cost and many are addicted to it and don't want to pay the piper when its up, and the more you do the more exponentially the debt grows (just like an aircraft needs many times more energy after a certain speed to double it, it needs more than double to attain it) , its a moral issue as much as anything else.

Sure some investment can be good and there is some strength as a collective but if a drug addict could only use once in a while it probably wouldn't be a problem either - just look at how much we are going into debt and its obvious something is wrong and not honest - and something too complex is a recipe for mischief in money.

So to say and my answer is two fold that one we should be careful agreeing to things that we don't understand and also that we are borrowing from the future to pay the present. 
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LIBERterryAN
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2010, 01:59:27 PM »

I'm no economist, but I think that your original assumption was correct---partly.

Whats happenned is you've created a $10 IOU out of nothing.  So the money supply = $20.  But only for
a while.  As you make your debt payments, the portion (or percentage) of your debt payments which
are principal payments -- remember the $10 that we created out of nothing? -- are RETIRED from the
circulation.  But the bank will keep the interest.

So if you took out a 10-year loan at an interest rate of 10%, then you would, in the end, give the bank
$20.  So the money supply would be back at $10.

Of course that original $10 of money, what you called a starting money supply, would likely be an IOU
also.  And that loan, too, would be RETIRED from the circulation as it was paid off.  And the bank would
keep the interest.

The long-term money-supply is always ZERO.  Wierd but true.  Please see "The Earth plus 5%."

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cameronhill
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2010, 03:24:24 PM »

Doesn't it depend on what you did with the money?  If you made something with the money that used $2 and paid others $5 to make something that was worth $50, then you could lend out the $50 in digital coin.  You would pay back the loan with 1/5th of the proceeds of your sale.  You would have $43 of money, $3 from the loan and $40 of digital coin that came back to you.   (What can you do with that (how real is it?)  Is it real simce you loaned it in the first place or did it get extinguished when it came back to you?

If you just used the loan for off island pleasure then you are trapped. I guess?
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