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This forum is primarily for the discussion of developing monetary systems like Digital Coin, but also existing alternative and mainstream monetary systems past & present. It should be used thoughtfully to both present and study such systems in an open, objective, and active manner. Please leave your politics at the door. Those coming to grandstand or otherwise play politics, will be removed. Stick to the facts and reference all that you are able.

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daniel g
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« on: December 29, 2010, 12:54:46 PM »


I'm very excited about the Digital Coin proposal, and I've done my best to understand it and picture it in action.

The Credit Coin (CC) system is extremely well thought out and it's amazing how many advantages it offers.

However, I had difficulties fully grasping the concept of the Perpetual Coin (PC). To be honest, the proposal seems to contain several descriptions of what it *could* look like that aren't all compatible with each other. In my understanding, the usefulness of the system would depend to a great extent on the stability of the PC, so it's absolutely crucial to determine the best way to implement it.

While thinking about this, I came across the Bitcoin system and a discussion on the Bitcoin forum about Digital Coin. One of the users, Bruce Wagner, had contacted Paul and asked about the similarities between Bitcoin and Digital Coin, but I found Paul's reply very unsatisfactory.

I feel that a PC modelled after the BTC (i.e. the Bitcoin currency) might work better than the one Paul seems to have in mind. On this basis, I've tried to work out how the Digital Coin system might work in more detail and posted this, in part as a response to the thread on the Digital Coin discussion, on the Bitcoin Forum.

Here is the thread I responded to:
http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=1992.0

This is the thread I started:
http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=2492.0


Even though it is written "from the perspective of Bitcoin", it is really much more concerned with Digital Coin, and so I felt I should also post it here. Note that many of the ideas are quite independent of what the PC will look like in practice (p.e. my ideas on the user interface) and might be of a more general interest.

In essence, I propose that the PC will be not merely an abstract unit of value but a currency in itself that "backs" the CC (a bit like gold "backs" paper money, although there are obvious problems with that analogy).

Please let me now what you think about it.









The Digital Coin system (DC) requires a "base currency" (called Perpetual Coin (PC)) as a unit of value on which to base its Credit Coins (CCs). It's the foundation of the system and needs to be something everybody can fall back on if they are uncomfortable with any CCs for whatever reason. Therefore, this currency needs to be reliable, decentralized, stable, digital etc. ... in short, everything that Bitcoin (BC) does.

While Paul is very clear on his ideas for CCs, his concept of PC still seems somewhat nebulous. From his proposal I can't tell whether PCs will be used for trade at all, whether or not more PCs will be added to the money supply and whether the government will be allowed to do this (clearly, a worst case scenario, IMO)*. What I did gather is that he wants the software developer of DC to issue PC in exchange for any major currency based on a ratio between the most valuable currency to the dollar. To me this has some obvious problems: You still have a "central bank" issuing the money that can, in principle, choose to withhold it or spend it secretly. Even if we assume it to be perfectly benign and competent, still the (arbitrary) decision when to delink the PC from other currencies (i.e. when to stop selling PCs) has to be made. Further, this way the growth of the money supply is unpredictable and in fact closely linked to what happens to the other currencies. To me, the automated, decentralized, gradual growth of the money supply with a fixed permanent cap that BC uses seems much more preferable.

*(It is possible that he was referring only to issuing physical cash. However that is still something that's better privatized: Companies could set up "ATMs" that, for a small fee, deduct an amount of PCs from your account and hand out a token that can eventually be fed into the machine again with its value added to the account. Companies would compete for issuing the most reliable tokens and the most difficult to counterfeit.)

The other advantage of using BTC as PC is that in the BC community we already have a (growing) group of people who understand the problems of the current monetary system and who have adopted a digital currency as a possible solution. Competition between systems does have some advantages (if it furthers innovation etc.), but since new currency systems depend on a widespread use, an interlocking pattern would be better than isolated systems. In fact, if for any reason BC should fail, users might resort to CCs to bridge the time to build a new money supply, and vice versa.

Unfortunately, judging by his response to Bruce, Paul doesn't seem to agree. He considers BTC a "commodity", insisting that the PC will be "very different". Nanaimogold has suggested that this is simply because he dislikes Bruce. I hope he's joking.


In any case, I think there are three possible scenarios for building a system of CCs on a system such as BC:
1. DC uses BTC as PCs.
2. DC uses PCs directly linked to BTC and/or facilitating easy exchange between the two.
3. DC uses PCs independent of, but very similar to BTC (i.e. its own money supply grown in a similar way).

The difference between these three might be purely technical. For the following considerations I will assume that DC will use PCs essentially the way BC uses BTC and refer to them as PCs.




Using Digital Coin in Addition to Bitcoin


The first thing to understand is that the CC system is entirely optional. You could do whatever you do now with BTC, using PC, and use CC to whatever extent you like. Your software would by default refuse to accept any CC except those you explicitly choose to accept (put on your Accept List).

The other thing is that the software would do a lot of work for you. The issue of complexity came up, having to manage many different currencies. This is meant to be automated, so that you don't even notice what CCs you trade with, unless you are specifically seeking to buy one (I explain this in more detail further below).

A third point that is often overlooked or misunderstood is that the total amount of CCs doesn't have any effect on the value of any other currencies (including PC), because every single CC is reliably tied to a real product or service.




Why use Digital Coin?


Then what advantages would DC offer, in addition to those already offered by BC? Here's a list of examples:

-No shortage of money. Wherever there are people with goods and service to trade, CCs can be issued to facilitate trade.

-No loans, no interest, no money debt. The only way to go "bankrupt" in this system is for an Issuer to fail to deliver his goods or services on request. Note that this is rarely the reason people go bankrupt under the current system.

-CCs are backed by actual goods and services. Every CC is worth at least 1 PC when redeemed at the Issuer even if its market value drops below that.

-Profits can only be realized by spending them, i.e. a profit is always a product or a service purchased. Profit is not the result of an inflated sense of value ("bubble"), for example.

-For customers, it means ubiquitous discounts with virtually no hassle. (Using CCs in principle does carry a higher risk than using PCs, however.)

-For companies (i.e. Issuers) it means the ability to spend first and to deliver later and also to provide strong incentives for costumers to redeem their products at a specific time.

-The system enforces balance of trade. Whether a company issues too many or too few CCs, either way they pass on their potential profits to their customers. If the government issues only CCs, there is no way it can spend more than it collects in taxes. There are many options to rebalance the budget, including simply buying back issued CCs (which would then disappear automatically, see further below).

-Decreases in value of any given CC are evenly distributed among those who trade them ("hot potato effect"), making big losses less likely.

-Voting with your wallet. This system adds a strong democratic control to the use of money. BP has had another oil spill? In addition to not buying from them, just remove their currency from your Accept List as well. This will devalue it and, if enough people do this, force them to cut spending. Corporations would have to be a lot more sensitive to their reputation and public opinion. (Note that this won't apply to government CCs, however, if the government forces you to pay your taxes with them.)

-If wages are paid in the company's CCs (which is to be expected), risks, profits and losses are (to a degree) shared by all of its employees, encouraging efficiency,  solidarity and teamwork. (However, this system alone won't prevent CEOs from paying themselves huge bonuses, for example.)

-While transactions will be anonymous, huge amounts of data could be collected by the software that could reliably reflect almost anything of interest to an economist, investor or customer. (Regarding some possible applications this is obviously a question of transparency vs privacy and needs to be considered carefully.)

-Flexibility. The very same software could be used to issue national legal tender (by which I mean "the money you pay your taxes with") or a local currency in a small town.

-Banks will become redundant.


In short, the DC system constantly insists on the exchange of real goods and services, facilitates and rewards honesty and efficiency while making speculation more difficult and punishing reckless spending and parasitic behavior.



So, what's a Credit Coin?

A CC is self-issued credit backed by your promise to redeem it for your goods or services. Its base value is equal to 1 PC and you promise to accept it in the place of 1 PC. Unlike a PC, it has an expiry date as well as a redemption curve. This means that you can specify at what time and for how long how much discount you offer for the redemption of your CC (more specifically by how much more you honor you own CC over PC).

The CC is a digital object, specifically a serial number. This number contains a variety of information: who issued it, possible restrictions on its circulation (p.e. for local currencies), denomination, redemption curve and current owner. All but the last are always transparent to anyone (like information written on a banknote), with anonymity of the owner maintained at all times. (To be clear, since only the owner can manipulate a CC you know that the person offering a CC IS the owner, but not WHO he is.) A transaction is effected simply by changing the owner in the serial number.




How will this work?


DC is meant to be implemented using Maidsafe's emerging Perpetual Data technology, which will be like a massive global P2P network, with the difference that actual transfer of data will be unnecessary, the data being accessible from anywhere. This will free huge amounts of disk space and CPU power.
(Bruce has already provided the link in Paul's response:  http://www.paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoonfireStudio/PAGES/PD/Perpetual_Data_homepageFlash.html)

The DC software, on the other hand, will be required to do a lot of very sophisticated calculations, which might not seem possible today. But for now, let's look at what we want this software to do and then at when it might become available.

(As an aside: DC is meant to provide you with an account that let's you manipulate your coins, while they are stored within the system itself. While this is different from having a wallet file, if the Perpetual Data system catches on, the difference will become much smaller as soon as BC users start to store their wallet files on it.)

One of the most important features to understand is that the software reevaluates each CC after each transaction, establishing their value in PC based on their buy/sell ratio. This is what enforces balanced budgets and some of the other benefits mentioned above (check out the DC proposal for a more detailed explanation).

Because of this mechanism, even though the proposal mentions online market places for trading CCs, these are actually not needed. CCs could be traded as simply as BTCs are traded now within the user software itself.




What happens if an Issuer fails to redeem his CCs?


This depends on whether CCs are based entirely on trust or whether they truly are enforceable contracts. In the first case, the PC spent would be lost. This is the risk that accepting CCs carries. One could still go to a special Internet forum and post the complaint, corroborated by other complaints and users could put the Issuer in question on their blacklist, refusing to trade with him entirely. Unfortunately, there would be a strong incentive not to report the Issuer until one has sold the (irredeemable) CCs. Still, word would spread quickly. However, if CCs were actual contracts that a court would enforce, then the CCs would be redeemed with the Issuer's assets, similar to a bankruptcy procedure. There still needs to be a mechanism though to make sure that the software recognizes those CCs and makes them void-for-trade as soon as possible.




What might the interface of the user software look like?


Here is how I picture it (based on the proposal and what I've mentioned so far):

When online, you would open your software and login. Your software will display your current balance in PC prominently at the top. You can click Send and transfer any amount of PC or CC that are in your account, basically the way BC works.
Below there are four tabs: Accept, Sell, Buy and Issue.

The Accept tab simply lets you manage which CCs you accept, being able to specify a range of maturation and expiry dates for each (this is explained below). To accept a currency, all you need in principle is to know the name of its Issuer. You should also be able to sort the CCs by priority.

If you select Sell, you get a complete list of all CCs that you currently own, with their current value in PC, updated constantly (every second?), next the date of its maturation (perhaps, optionally, as a countdown timer?), as well as the date of its expiry. If you select an amount (up to the amount you currently own, of course) and click the Sell button to the right, you broadcast your desire to sell the selected amount of CCs of that type for the current price, and will continue to keep broadcasting it until it is sold or you hit Cancel. If, while your offer is still valid, somebody hits Buy, your CCs are sold for the price in that moment, not for the price when you offered to sell (i.e. it's not ask/bid). The CCs are transferred to the buyer's account and his PCs added to yours. (The software would sell those CCs first that have been on offer the longest.) You can also specify any amount of CCs as "not for trade", which will not be used for any transfer unless you unblock them first.

If you click on the Buy tab, you can enter a search term, usually the name of the Issuer whose CCs you want to buy. Ideally, there should be a whole range of ways to gather current information about CCs, their price development etc. though perhaps displayed on a website rather than within your software window. At the very least, you should be able to enter a range of maturation and expiry dates (earliest-latest). It is very important that the software does not only keep track of the buy/sell ratio of CCs as suggested in the proposal but also is able to distinguish between matured and expired CCs and, ideally, between, for example, a CC one day from expiry and a CC one minute from expiry. Since many users will want to drop their CCs before they expire (assuming they are not interested in the goods they redeem), it would be worthwhile to search not just for matured CCs but also those close to expiry. Ideally, the software does the calculations for you, with you simply entering the amount in matured CCs and receiving a suggested "basket" of matured and almost-expired CCs that are available that is the most cost-effective. If you are happy with the selection, you hit Buy, and the equivalent amount is deducted from your PCs.

Issuing new CCs would require a login with a separate account name that has been created with the help of a(reliable!) identity verification service. If a case can be made for the anonymous issuing of CCs, this login could be made optional, but I don't see it. People need to know with whom to redeem their CCs. A website would list the identity of all Issuers whose CCs are in circulation. (Identity could mean personal and/or corporate identity. Many companies might actually like the idea of being able to tell which of their employers has issued any given CC).

If you want to issue CCs, you can set the redemption curve as described in the proposal (the exact possible parameters would have to be worked out) and create as many CCs as you like. However, the Issue tab acts as a sort of "sandbox" where CCs can be programmed without the software acknowledging their existence. The software stores these "virtual CCs", visually distinguishable from the others and does not keep track of them in any way, although they can be stored together with the "real" (or "activated") CCs. Once created, you can transfer them to anybody who has your CCs on their Accept List or simply broadcast your desire to sell them. Of course, in both cases you need people who know about your CCs and trust them. Only once the first transfer is made is the CC truly created and the software keeps track of it like of any other. Whenever one of your own CCs is paid back to you, it disappears instantly, although the program keeps a log of received payments for you. (In fact, it might keep a log of all transactions or those you specify.)

If you send money to another account, you can specify which combination of PC and CCs to send or do an automated transfer. In the second case, the system checks all your CCs available for trade against the recipient's priority of accepted CCs, by default trading CCs in that priority and adding PC if necessary. If you specify a transfer whose accepted CCs do not add up to the desired amount and/or if you run out of PCs, you'll get an "insufficient funds" or similar message.




Example


Let's look at a simply example of using CCs with the software I have described:
Suppose I have auctioned a few books on eBay for 20 PC. The buyer's software automatically offers a basket of CCs at current price level which is compared to the CCs on my accept list. If there is a sufficient match, they are transferred, and the CCs will show up on my account. However, if the sum offered of PCs and CCs that are also on my accept list don't add up to 20 PC, the buyer has no choice but to sell his CCs on the market and come back with PCs or CCs that I accept.
After the transaction I click on Sell All to convert all my current CCs into PC (a habit that many users might get into). Now, I want to spend my 20 PC and buy a product from a company that also issues CCs, say a movie from Disney. I check on their website and see that the movie costs 20 PC or 16 Disney-CCs (at maximum maturation). I could just transfer the 20 PCs and be done with it; instead, I click on the Buy tab on my DC software and search for a basket of Disney-CCs that are matured and/or nearing expiry, totaling the value of 16 matured Disney-CCs. The software presents me with a basket of such CCs that totals 17 PC. I click the Buy button, happy that the minute or so that I spent on the search has yielded 3 PC in savings.

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Paul Grignon
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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2011, 07:38:05 AM »

Reply to Daniel G

First let me say I am very impressed with your grasp of the proposal. 

I need to get back to finishing Money as Debt III, Evolution Beyond Money  in which I make the case that the "single uniform commodity " principle of money is the root of the problem, so I will keep this short.  I hope the movie will clear up many misconceptions about the Proposed Self-Issued Credit (aka Digital Coin) system.

BitCoin proudly announces that they are using their welcome technological breakthrough to replicate the problem I am preaching against.  That sort of puts us at odds.  I would rather their technology be put to use by existing LETS systems as it would solve one of their big problems, the costs of accounting. However, time will tell.  It was what  was practical to do on their own, which I understand.

I wonder why you say that BitCoin is stable.  They sell you BitCoins in exchange for computer time and the BitCoins can be sold for US dollars at whatever the market will pay.  The price already has shot up several times has it not?

Isn't that what has people excited?  The prospect of this being an "investment".  Where is the stability?  Because the circulation will stop at 21 million? What is the logic of a fixed money supply anyway?  I don't see any. It is a recipe for reproducing all the problems we had when gold was money.


As for PC or Perpetual Coin, there does seem to be some misunderstanding.  PC could be nothing more than an equation as its purpose is to familiarize people with a new value unit that is initially defined in relation to existing currencies, as existing currencies are the only value units people are now familiar with.

Credit Coin is worth something as it is backed by production.  Perpetual Coin would only be redeemable for the national currency it was bought with.  That currency might be worthless.  Perpetual Coin is a device for establishing a new value unit. Find another way to to do that and we don't need PC at all.


In fact, if many disparate systems could agree to harmonize on the same unit we could create a new world currency of self-issued credit without having to have "one system".  Self-issued credit is always defined by the prices of real things.  Therefore, what we need is a new unit in which to express these prices,  one that can be liberated from the existing units once people have a concept of what it is worth where they are.

MAD III will be ready soon.

Paul Grignon
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Jordan
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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2011, 07:58:13 AM »

To be fair to Bitcoin, it was designed to be like gold, so yes it does have some of golds problems. However, being digital it fixes some of those problems as well. For example it seems:

 it would be very difficult to debase bitcoin;
 for a government to take it over (confiscate it);
 it is much easier to trade with anyone around the world than gold;
 
Are the problems of bitcoin insurmountable - are they even permanent, or are they artifacts of mining and currency speculation due to the weaknesses of government issued money? I think that as Bitcoin matures it should become much more stable. That's not to say perfectly stable or anything remotely close to it, but compared to gold & silver it seems it should be considerably better and compared to government issued money it should be miles ahead.

While Bitcoin enthusiasts aren't so keen on the idea yet, I wonder - if many bitcoin variants were started up around the globe in local/regional economic areas e.g. say replacing existing LETS systems as a start; then I think these regional currencies could be used to create the basket that defines PC.  Obvious advantage is that manipulation of individual (and localized) bitcoin systems is much harder than any centralized currency systems. Thought of in terms of metal, it would be like a basket of platinum, gold, silver, copper, nickel, etc. - again though it would be better than metal however as bitcoins don't have all the drawbacks of metals and there could be hundreds if not thousands of regional bitcoin variants making up the basket.



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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2011, 04:56:57 PM »



While Bitcoin enthusiasts aren't so keen on the idea yet, I wonder - if many bitcoin variants were started up around the globe in local/regional economic areas e.g. say replacing existing LETS systems as a start; then I think these regional currencies could be used to create the basket that defines PC.  Obvious advantage is that manipulation of individual (and localized) bitcoin systems is much harder than any centralized currency systems. Thought of in terms of metal, it would be like a basket of platinum, gold, silver, copper, nickel, etc. - again though it would be better than metal however as bitcoins don't have all the drawbacks of metals and there could be hundreds if not thousands of regional bitcoin variants making up the basket.

Hi, I'm new here  Smiley

Jordan, I don't get it  Huh. I think your analogy of "basket of commodity" of bitcoins is more like basket of bitcoins traded in different places/community, it is still bitcoins, not another commodity or anything different. So people still think it's the same thing, regardless where it's used. If Mr.Grignon was right then when people on the mania mode, the price of all bitcoins only go up, and when the euphoria is run out of gas, then the prices only go down. So not point of making a basket of bitcoins that traded in different places as making a basket of gold that traded in different country.

I think if you need stable prices, a price table of raw material unchanged & protected by law (like Hammurabi price table) will be enough to be the basis for PC.

Pardon of my bad english  Embarrassed
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Jordan
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2011, 08:09:15 PM »

The real problem with bitcoin is it's uptake. Unless it's exchangeable for other core commodities, then it may not attract enough attention to become a valued currency. It is a commodity however - if you have a reason for why you think it's not, please detail. So far as my study of it is concerned, it has all the qualities of a commodity except one and that is a core relation to other commodities. That may come in time.

One way people might tackle the problem of bitcoin uptake is local bitcoin variants produced by vendors and primary producers, using them as 'Credit Coin'-like IOU's.

Quote
I think if you need stable prices, a price table of raw material unchanged & protected by law (like Hammurabi price table) will be enough to be the basis for PC.

This is, for me a philosophical question. Anytime laws are used to fix the market, then by definition the free market is corrupted. Once that precedent has been set, what moral rational can be put forward to prevent further corruptions of the free market? - none in my humble opinion. This is why governments get bigger and more totalitarian over time. Therefore I do not support 'positive law'. Only natural law and free markets can bring us to viable sustainable solutions. We are a big jump from such a world, but the alternative is not something I can even think about, it's too terrible for my mind to conceive.

More people need to study holistically: philosophy and first principles of morality; Austrian economics/praxeology; the history of governments and money; and energy.

Begin to pull on one thread and one finds that it's connected to the whole tapestry.
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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2011, 03:05:08 AM »

The real problem with bitcoin is it's uptake. Unless it's exchangeable for other core commodities, then it may not attract enough attention to become a valued currency. It is a commodity however - if you have a reason for why you think it's not, please detail. So far as my study of it is concerned, it has all the qualities of a commodity except one and that is a core relation to other commodities. That may come in time.

One way people might tackle the problem of bitcoin uptake is local bitcoin variants produced by vendors and primary producers, using them as 'Credit Coin'-like IOU's.

I also think bitcoins as commodity but bitcoins traded in in different places doesn't make it another commodity. Gold is still gold no matter where they are, right? Because people sees it as the same commodity and think it as investment. The up and down of it price will generally the same no matter where they are, eventually. So no point to put them in a basket.

Quote
I think if you need stable prices, a price table of raw material unchanged & protected by law (like Hammurabi price table) will be enough to be the basis for PC.

This is, for me a philosophical question. Anytime laws are used to fix the market, then by definition the free market is corrupted. Once that precedent has been set, what moral rational can be put forward to prevent further corruptions of the free market? - none in my humble opinion. This is why governments get bigger and more totalitarian over time. Therefore I do not support 'positive law'. Only natural law and free markets can bring us to viable sustainable solutions. We are a big jump from such a world, but the alternative is not something I can even think about, it's too terrible for my mind to conceive.

More people need to study holistically: philosophy and first principles of morality; Austrian economics/praxeology; the history of governments and money; and energy.

Begin to pull on one thread and one finds that it's connected to the whole tapestry.

Right, but something that used as money or standard can't enter the free market at all or the function of it will void. You know what happened when the currency traded in free market, right? It loses it function as standard. That why we need law or something similar to prevent it from changing.

No point using a ruler that always changed its measurement by free market
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« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2011, 08:32:05 PM »

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Right, but something that used as money or standard can't enter the free market at all or the function of it will void. You know what happened when the currency traded in free market, right? It loses it function as standard. That why we need law or something similar to prevent it from changing.

No point using a ruler that always changed its measurement by free market

I'm not familiar with this argument. How does a free market void the function of money? Why is one particular money needed?  With technology today it would be possible and easy for many to coexist. The free market enables people to choose the one that proves it's stability and robustness. On the other side of the coin, so to speak, even if money did "lose it's function", how can two wrongs make a right? You can't gain stability by giving men guns (creating a government) to enforce monetary stability - look at the bank of england, look at the federal reserve, look at any government issued money throughout history! The government will use its power to the ultimate advantage of those that have the wealth to control it. Once a government maintained monopoly on money is created inflation runs rampant as this is a hidden means of taxing and thus exploiting the labor of the lower class and any who don't have the ability to move their wealth into commodities that don't lose their value at the appropriate time.
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« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2011, 07:15:49 AM »

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How does a free market void the function of money?
Free market let us trade money for itself, not only for goods and services. So when demand for trading money with money get bigger, the supply of money will not grow parallel with the supply of goods and services, so the value of money will shrink and the price of goods and services will rise.
If PC is let to free float based on market price then how do I price my credit coin, how do I determine the price of my product in PC and how do I compare my product with other producer in PC when the PC itself always changing its value everyday?

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Why is one particular money needed?  With technology today it would be possible and easy for many to coexist.
Right, but what you're talking about is not exist right now

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The free market enables people to choose the one that proves it's stability and robustness.
If it's about community currency, how can you find one that have value stability when everyone is encourage its currency to free float based on free market?

Quote
You can't gain stability by giving men guns (creating a government) to enforce monetary stability - look at the bank of england, look at the federal reserve, look at any government issued money throughout history!
The banks that you're mentioned is consortium of private banking, designed to protect "its kind" to stay in business. Bank of England nowadays claim to be owned by goverment but still operate behind the curtain. First (and second) bank of United States also owned by private banker but still create rampant inflation.

Quote
Once a government maintained monopoly on money is created inflation runs rampant as this is a hidden means of taxing
What is your standard for rampant? Is 5% per year nowadays means rampant? More importantly the one that create most money is bank not government, and their motives is only for profit which is analogous with free market philosophy.
From what I know, rampant inflation is usually caused by war, crazy counterfeiting (like england did with continental currency when at war against the US), heavy short selling of the currency (German mark in Hitler era), and sector that create most job, destroyed like in zimbabwe.

Quote
any who don't have the ability to move their wealth into commodities that don't lose their value at the appropriate time.
Are you sure about that? Usually commodities lose their value in economic downturn when silver price fell 68% from $1.38 an ounce in 1919 to 44 cents in 1932 or when it's bubble burst when gold price fell from $800 to about $300 per ounce in 1980.
Commodity price rise only when much people buy it, not because they have certain "intrinsic value", IMO it's only a great myth and propaganda.
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2011, 08:55:04 PM »


Reply to Paul Grignon


Thanks for your reply!

I think you are doing a great service to everybody by explaining the nature of money with your excellent videos. And, as I have mentioned, there is a lot that I like about your proposal for self-issued credit as well.

Let me address some of the points you have made.


1. I am looking forward to watching MAD III. I did watch your video "Money: Jailor or Liberator" and I think I have some idea about what you mean by the "single uniform commodity principle".

In the video you say, "its value [i.e. the value of money] is relative to its total abundance in relation to the total goods and services for sale". This is only true if there is only one legal tender. Otherwise the value of any given money commodity is determined by its supply and demand as well as by the supply and demand for other commodities.

The way I see it, the reason we have a single uniform commodity (i.e. a national legal tender fiat currency) in every country is that every governement issues one currency and essentially prohibits the use of any other (sometimes indirectly through taxes on trading gold etc.). In a free market, nobody would be forced to limit themselves to only one commoditity for trading; there would be a free market for currencies. For me, the solution to one of the essential problems of money is therefore simply to get government out of the money business.

In principle, any commodity that is at least somewhat scarce, durable, divisible, fungible, easily identifed and difficult to produce can serve as money anywhere anytime. In MAD II you argue against interest, saying that eventually one person will end up with "all the gold". That could happen in theory, but nobody will end up with all units of all commodities. If there is no gold, people can trade with silver. If there is no silver, people can trade with copper or aluminium or (nowadays) with virtual commodities like Bitcoin. Every borrower having to pay back more money than they have borrowed only becomes a mathematical paradox if all of the only money they may use is always created as debt; if money is created (or found) and traded as a commodity, interest is accomodated through changing prices. Interest is the price for a sale of time preference, which is a useful service.

And money is always a commodity*. If you have something I could use as money and you are willing to part with it, I can always offer goods and services (including other currencies) for it, directly or indirectly. This means that any form of money will be traded on the open market (essentially by definition). That's why I criticised your claim that Bitcoin is "only a commodity" and that DC will be "very different". Even if PCs will be redeemable only for the currency they were bought with, those currencies will still be traded for each other and for goods and services. The trading of PCs could not be prevented.


*To substantiate this idea, here is my attempt at a definition of money:

"Money is the total of the following:
1. The idea and the behavior based on the idea that
2. a commodity or the promise of a commodity
3. that is agreed upon and trusted by at least three parties as representing a potential claim on the goods and services of all the parties that so trust it
4. can be used to facilitate trade by circumventing the limitations of barter and increase freedom and efficiency
5. by one party transferring ownership and control over it to a second party that chooses to accept it
6. with the intention to surrender the first party's claim over to the second party, whether in exchange for goods or services from the second party or not, at one point of time in a way as to allow the second party in return to surrender this claim in the same way with the same intention at an arbitrary point of time in the future to an arbitrary party that chooses to accept it
7. thus also serving as a store of value
8. and as a unit of account."

Note that even the promise of a commodity can itself be traded as a (separate) commodity, in other words "credit becomes cash".



2. You didn't address my main concern of having a "Central Digital Coin Bank" with all the problems that this might bring. I'd much rather see a decentralized way of using self-issued credit!


3.
I wonder why you say that BitCoin is stable. [...] What is the logic of a fixed money supply anyway?  I don't see any.

When we speak about monetary stability, we have to distinguish between supply stability and price stability. Obviously, neither can ever be perfectly achieved, but we can try to identify which of the two is more important and desirable. This might in fact be one of the most crucial issues in economics. (For example, it's at the core of the debate between Austrians and Keynesians. As you might have guessed, I am arguing from the Austrian perspective - as do many other Bitcoin supporters).

In a healthy economy, as machines and training increase efficiency, productivity naturally increases over time. This means that, all things being equal, prices will fall, and money will purchase more and better goods and services. Of course, prices don't fall uniformly, new goods and services are supplied and demanded etc., but this would be the general trend. This is deflation, and it's a good thing. It's even good from an accounting perspective, if people can be sure that changes in price reflect changes in the supply and demand of goods and services and NOT merely in the supply of money.
Deflation also encourages saving, which makes investment possible, which leads to a further increase in productivity.

However, Irving Fisher argued that it's a bad thing from an accounting perspective (menu cost etc.) and that the government should stabilize prices by increasing the money supply. But this, too, carries a cost. In a sense, money represents vouchers for goods and services, and if you double the supply of vouchers without doubling the supply of goods and services, you merely half the value of money. Further, new money is injected at different points at different speed so different people are affected differently by inflation. One way of trying to stabilize prices (and injecting new money) is to artificially lower nominal interest rates, which (again, according to the Austrian theory of the business cycle) leads to overconsumption and malinvestment, which in turn lead to a recession or depression.

Prices can never be stable, because they are determined by too many factors (in a sense, they are determined by all events at all times). However, if a currency is created (rather than using a natural commodity), one can strive for money supply stability.

What Bitcoin offers is a money supply that grows slowly, gradually, very predictably and very reliably. There is no danger of a central bank creating trillions in a matter of days and thus devaluing everybody's savings. The value of Bitcoin lies in the fact that it is designed to be a commodity that fulfills to a high degree the requirements that people place on a commodity for it to be considered safe, sound and useful money. In this context, a guarantee of scarcity is a guarantee of value. An actual fixed cap on the money supply is indeed not necessary; it's just a bonus. Continuous scarcity is what's important.

Also note that there is little point in creating "paper BTC"; thus, BTC will always be traded as itself, and promises to pay BTC will not replace actual BTC as money.


4.
It is a recipe for reproducing all the problems we had when gold was money.

Please be specific. As far as I understand, there have been two major problems, one with gold specifically and one with deflation generally. First, gold is not perfectly divisible and so when governments ship each other huge quantities of gold in payment they deprive their people of the same as a medium of exchange. This cannot happen with Bitcoin, because BTC are perfectly divisible; even if we were somehow deprived of all but 1 BTC, we could just shift the decimal place and carry on as before. The second problem is the deflationary spiral under a fractional reserve system where each bank failure shrinks the money supply and causes another bank failure. Again, this has nothing to do with Bitcoin (or gold, for that matter).



5.
Perpetual Coin is a device for establishing a new value unit. Find another way to to do that and we don't need PC at all.

I love the part in your film "Essence of Money" where you say, "You have never heard a construction worker say, 'Sorry, we can't finish your house. We've run out of inches.'" For the purpose of illustrating the importance of money as a unit of exchange this is a perfect analogy. However, it cannot be extended to how this unit is defined. Someone somewhere once took an arbitrary distance that we still use today and called it an "inch". People have accepted it and use it. You and I can each purchase a ruler at different parts of the world, meet at the same place, measure the same distance and your inch will be as long as my inch, because we live in a world where distances are objective and don't suddenly change unpredictably. The same is not true for prices, because they are based on the interplay of events we can't predict and the actions of people we don't know, and because utility is subjective. A good or service at one time and place to one person is not the same as even a similar good or service at another time and place to another person. Therefore, a price is not a measurement of value; it's a bid for a certain amount of the monetary commodity. A producer considers the marginal costs of production, his marginal utility of the product, the prices others charge for similar products and his marginal utility of the monetary commodity (among perhaps a dozen other factors), and says, "I offer to exchange this product for X units of money", hoping somebody will want to make that exchange.

You can't place a ruler on the global market and say, "This is 1 util." Consider the limitations of the Big Mac index, for example. One Big Mac is as close to "one unit of consumption" as you can get, and yet, how do you calculate in the utility of a Hindu who would pay for Big Macs to never be produced in the first place?


There is no unit of value (just as there is no unit of friendship), and so all you can work with is a price. A price, however, has to emerge from the market to be any useful. Of course, if you sell PCs, you can set the price at any rate you want (including pegging it to other currencies, as you've proposed), but it will still be a price, and PCs would still be a commodity. And you would be offering an inferior product to the degree that you try to replace or circumvent the dynamics of the market.

If you want to give people the chance to issue their own credit, you must also allow them to trade them freely for any and all currencies. This simply can't be prevented.


I want to live in a world where prices are determined by the market and where different commodities emerge as money from the market. Bitcoin seems to me one of the most promising such commodities. However, by itself it offers no solution to the problem of credit. I could imagine that we will eventually use a system like Ripple Pay for this, but I would love to see a system like Credit Coin available as a financial instrument (comparable to swaps, options etc.). I understand that this is different from what you want, but ideally the technology and the software behind Credit Coins could be used in different ways by different people. My main worry is that, if PCs are issued by one group of people and they dominate the system, the ideas behind Credit Coin could be seen as the failure, rather than its method of implementation - and so far, there seem to be no ideas for the implementation of PCs that are both clear and feasible.

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Paul Grignon
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2011, 08:41:24 AM »

I just read all the new and insightful inputs to this forum, mostly in response to my comment about BitCoin. I read from you many of the same conclusions I have come to myself. While we have differences there is a lot of commonality as well. I appreciate especially the suggestion that BitCoin technology should be offered for use by self-issued credit systems so that BitCoin becomes a specifically redeemable credit instead of a "single uniform commodity" of floating value.

Money as Debt III is now completed

Many of the ideas mentioned are illustrated in detail in my new movie.   I guarantee you will find MAD 3 interesting!  It is in 4 Parts, each a movie in itself, and includes "The Essence of Money" as the introduction.  It will be available in about 2 weeks.  Those on my mailing list will be notified. Check at moneyasdebt.net for the new website.

In the movie I did not restrict the proposal ideas to any technology.  Even existing banking systems are included as an option. The point is what is the money redeemable for?  In the proposal, all credit is for something specific from someone specific, just like a promise of gold used to be, only not limited to one commodity but to anything in demand.

There are some misconceptions about Perpetual Coin that will hopefully be cleared up in the movie.

Perpetual Coin could be nothing more than a mathematical formula derived from existing currencies. Its only purpose is to create a new independent value unit from our existing value units. The only way I can think of for introducing Perpetual Coin as something of value is to sell it for existing national currencies, as a convenient money replacement, holding the national currencies in trust within the banking system for future redemption. The goal is to start measuring value with the new (potentially global) value unit and leave national currencies to their own self-inflicted demise.

If the formula that defines the PC's value were designed to rise above the general devaluation curves of the national currencies, then it would always be a disadvantage to exit the new system. Also earlier-sold PC's would be redeemable for much less than later-sold ones so their trade value within the new system would always be more, progressively much more than the redemption value in national currency.

It seems to me there is some difficulty imagining any concept of money other than a "single uniform commodity" the value of which is determined by its scarcity.  BitCoin is the purest possible application of this concept having a set limit.

I am advocating an entirely different principle of money. A voucher for one of Anton's loaves of bread, has value, can be used as money, and can never be worth less or more than a loaf of bread from Anton, no matter how few or how many other vouchers are circulating in the marketplace.

Anton would be really happy to be able to use BitCoin technology to issue his bread credits instead of tearing up old dresses with unique patterns and attaching hand-signed IOU's. However, regardless of the technology, (who knows what level of technology we might be reduced to post any Crash) the operative principle is that of money as a defined redeemable credit, not money as a thing in itself.

Personal self-issued credit systems already exist.  Business-to-business self-issued credit systems already exist.  And BitCoin already exists.

In MAD 3, my proposal for a source of money is anyone who can get acceptance of it, which realistically will be mostly reliable businesses producing necessities in reliable demand.  My proposal for a money technology is something like BitCoin, anonymous peer-to-peer, that can work side by side with the same principles and value unit applied as accounting within an altered version of the current banking system.

Thank you all for your very civil and helpful input. I intend to revisit this forum more frequently in the future.

Paul
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Jordan
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2011, 10:24:22 PM »

Nice Paul!  I look forward to seeing MAD-3   Cheesy
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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2011, 05:37:26 AM »

Digital Compensation

Dc should be worked into existence.

The middle man is the market. Labor is invested into the market and digital compensation is created. A construction worker builds a house. A farmer works the greenhouses. The compensation is dependent upon supply and demand calculations. And that compensation is dynamic. The compensation is self aware. The compensation knows how it was created and its value upon creation.  The compensation knows its last use in trade, and it knows its value at that time.  Over time – the compensation changes value based upon current supply and demand information as it relates to its previous usage.

The value of dc should reflect supply and demand.

Value is determined by supply and demand information. As the information processors become more aware of supply and demand: credit creation is done in recognition of effective value calculations. This is not central planning because the calculation uses variables associated with real supply and demand. If there is no demand for a form of labor – then there is no compensation for that labor. The labor can be recorded. And if that labor becomes valuable in the future, then the digital compensation gains value. The laborers digital account increases in value. Likewise, a digital account can decrease in value over time. And the value of dc is always dependent upon current supply and demand.

There can be trade of dc in existence.

The fluctuating value of a digital compensation is dependent upon its previous exchange. An individual can maintain an account of dc as an investment – but there is risk. It is less risky to continue moving dc because changes in value can be more drastic as more time passes. A construction worker does labor building a house. And the worker is compensated as credits are created. Estimations are used to evaluate the day to day labor of the worker. And because the dc is self-aware: future work by the laborer influences the real-time value of previously acquired dc. This encourages workers to maintain credibility by developing and maintaining a sound reputation.

Property damage can be calculated as a way of reducing the dc within the perpetrator's account. The account can even go negative. Dc can be gifted and it maintains its exchange value based upon its last labor value.

Ideally there is no debt creation.

Debts are risky. Debts can be acquired through a judicial system. And debts can be created between individuals. A farmer can give food to a person without dc. And the dc accounts can go negative. Because the dc is partly or entirely a debt-based creation: it has intrinsic risks. The holder of the negative account may die, become sick, or simply choose to maintain an irresponsible life. The individual who accepts the debt-based dc can not trade that dc until the debts have been accounted for. An individual with a negative account may die, and their organs may be used as assets for compensation.

There can be property damage due to the wilderness. And there are various forms of insurance. We can protect ourselves against floods by using floating houses. This is insurance by design. Individuals may also organize with others who agree to insurance programs. These programs might collect and manage dc in a way that allows people to obtain help from the community if there is a need. Organizations can have negative accounts as well. But entities that accept the debt-based compensation can not use that dc in trades until the debts have been accounted for.
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