Perpetual Coin definition, origination, redemption and discussion

[investor90]

1)  I like your answers, but am concerned about transaction data getting into the hands of marketers or those who I do not want to be involved in "my business" of using this device.  In the USA with our supposedly confidential census interview and data collection.  Aggregates of data are sold to marketers and data mining can easily interfere with our personal freedoms.  I want to be truly anonymous,  and I should be able to have that right.  The digital coin infrastructure will ALWAYS  have the data and can sell valuable data about the transactions if they know about it.

2)  Another issue is how to protect us from banks who want to use this system to continue to defraud us while producing NO real goods or services.

3)  My favorite way of looking at how I spend money is to try to figure out WHO is receiving it.  I try to assure that except for taxes, which I cannot control, I NEVER want "my money" to be spent directly to people who do not add value to the item.  As a result, I keep my expenditures low.  I want to be able to decide WHO to reward with the fruit of my labors.  I use the saying:   " Doer's Get Paid "   If a person adds NO VALUE to a product or service I will NOT buy it!  Period.  I have a long list of organizations and people I refuse to trade with including bankers, loan companies, salesmen, "overhead workers"  etc etc.   I believe that EVERYONE  should add some value to a service or product, or I will refuse to buy it.  I can do this easier with your system.

If a person ADDS value to something, they should receive a benefit.  Hucksters, shylocks and most salesmen must seek other fool's to trick.

[Paul Grignon]

Hello Investor90,


What transaction data?  If I hand you a dollar bill, where is there any transaction data created ? Digital Coin would be the same.  I have it. Now you have it.  No accounting necessary.

Issuer Coin would of course be firmly identified.  It's a legal contract for delivery of goods and services.  Those who have neither to offer could not issue credit.


Paul

[Lutin]

Hi all

I have read an interesting french book (i don't find the book in other languages   ) which propose a lot of ideas concerning a new economic system :

Title : "Bioéconomie & Solidarisme - Pour une économie au service de la vie"  / "Bioeconomics & Solidaritism -  An economy at the service of the life"
Author : Marie Martin-Pécheux

This book talks about an economic system with making comparison with the human body, the money is like the blood, you need some, not more not less, and this is the body activities which determine the good amount of blood.

The author propose a idea to set the value of the currency : the working-time. I think this idea could be interesting to set the value of the Digital Coin.

Exemple : when you buy an apple, you never pay the apple itself, you pay the time of the worker who has gathered the fruit, the Nature (in our case the apple-tree) has never send you a bill.

Money is the power of the labour, this is the working-time : it is one o'clock of activity, of sweat and activity to achieve a task, and that is going to be exchanged for equivalent at another moment.
The persons who can work do not miss on our planet. Towards the human demography, the capacities of exchanges are gigantic.
For "only" one billion of adult workers, with a medium exchange salary of 10 monetary units per hour, 40 working-hours per weeks and one month of holiday we have :
1.000.000.000 x 48 weeks x 40 hours x 10 monetary unit = 19.200.000.000.000 monetary units. This amount of money is more than sufficient to satisfy all our needs :
- free for all health care system
- free for all education system
this two points are very important because if your worker are ill or not well educated, their productivity will be bad so their salaries will be lower and they won't be able to make exchange.
- global old age pension system
- transport facilities
- industrial investments
- leisure
- others

With this system, prices of goods and services could be precisely determined because you have just to add up all the time spend to make the good or execute the service.

Combinated with the system proposed by Paul Grignon, this is the worker who issue the money by his work, i think there is a good way to be explored.

You will says : "there is too many differencies between the working-time-value of a Chinese worker and a German worker", BUT thinks this difference come from our current system. Furthermore, as it is impossible to set a such system for all countries in "one day", the time needed to set-up this system everywhere could be used to compensate the difference of working-time-value between countries...with the help of new worldwide laws and agreements for exemple.

PS : i hope what i wrote is comprehensible  

[Jordan]

@ Lutin

Time Dollars seems an oversimplification to my mind.  

Specialization is vital to a wealthy society as it allows the development of processes and machinery that are much more efficient at doing specific tasks. Yet specialization requires a large component of study, research, & development. Which in turn requires delaying work for many years.

How can a person recover the loss in work hours for all the study and effort they put into their specialty if everyone is paid the same based only on hours worked?  

One might argue that all that time in study ought to be counted too, but how does one go about counting that?  I lived in an intentional community in Southern Missouri called EastWind for three years and they used a system very similar if not identical to what I think you are describing. Many people there 'padded' their hours and cheated. I can see the possibility of using a timeclock to monitor hours and reduce cheating, but where is my incentive to work?  I may as well take my time and chat with my friends instead of working hard - and that's exactly the kind of behavior I witnessed at EastWind. The honest people end up supporting the many dishonest people and they become frustrated and want out of the system (they leave).

Please forgive me if I'm misunderstanding the concept you are putting forward, perhaps I am the one who is oversimplifying.  

[GavinPalmer1984]

I am thinking about land and retirement in combination with PC.  Land retains its value unlike the CC.  A person who wants to retire must obtain CC that has a long expiration date, obtain PC, or possess enough land/property to be independent.  But in order to obtain land/property for long-term retirement - the individual must trade PC or some kind of long-term government CC.

Ideally, everyone would have an equal amount of property and could use that property for CC transactions.  Nobody would retire and would need to continually provide goods and/or services.  The amount of work needed would reflect the availability of automation technology.

I like the analogy of the sinking ship - life boat.  But the transition to CC / PC gives a lot of power to the land owners who can then exploit the people without land.  This is why there must be an eventual egalitarian distribution of land in combination with CC / PC.

If we ever arrive at a time where we have complete automation of necessary goods and services - there would be no need for money and there would only need to be an egalitarian distribution of energy credits as a means of accounting.

[Jordan]

@ GavinPalmer1984:

A person who wants to retire must obtain CC that has a long expiration date, obtain PC, or possess enough land/property to be independent.  But in order to obtain land/property for long-term retirement - the individual must trade PC or some kind of long-term government CC.

If you save up your money and buy land with PC/CC, I don't think it would be any different than how you'd save up money and buy land today.  Whether your money is CC or PC shouldn't really matter - that underlying difference is likely processed automatically by the system.  The Digital Coin idea is a very advanced form of money, it's not like trading IOU's   

Even today, we have in circulation vast quantities of bank credit which is constantly being shovelled back into banks and blinking out of existance. Yet this doesn't mean that such bank credit cannot be used for purchases while it's flowing around in the economy.

Digital coin allows debts to be moved around automatically. Say a trader creates some CC  - this happens through some type of bourse (exchange system) and that CC is then spent out into the economy and you end up with some of it and put it into you saving account.  During the time that the CC is in your account that trader decides to close his business. He then has to go to the bourse and settle his debts. All his outstanding CC would then be traded for either PC or someone else's CC. You wouldn't even notice that the CC in your account had changed.  It might even be simpler than that, but for the sake of understanding the process it's maybe useful explanation.

I like the analogy of the sinking ship - life boat.  But the transition to CC / PC gives a lot of power to the land owners who can then exploit the people without land.  This is why there must be an eventual egalitarian distribution of land in combination with CC / PC.

If we ever arrive at a time where we have complete automation of necessary goods and services - there would be no need for money and there would only need to be an egalitarian distribution of energy credits as a means of accounting.

I'm going to keep my comments limited to monetary systems and not venture into deeper issues.

[Lutin]

@ Jordan

The measurement of the working-time is the same as now...and it should be write on your contract (by democratic law) : 8 hours per days.

Every day or week or month, you declare the time you work electronically. This time is validate by your chief or your clients or by the amount of goods you've produce.

Your salary have societal part increased with some index as your age, your education/skill, the societal value of your works (for exemple : doctor have an higher societal value compared to another job)

All salary index are determited democratically, every year. The societal part is determined simply : this is the basic cost of life (house, food) by the government.

Look at this page : http://www.ecosocietal.org/  (there is a translator), and take a look to all chapter. I don't know if this is the good solution but the global concept and the digital coin are highly complementary

Have a nice day...and don't forget : "Save the world : eat a financial" LOL

[GavinPalmer1984]

I thought that CC has an expiration time while PC did not.  This prevents hoarding CC.  I also thought that the people who accept the CC are held accountable for the business's losses and there is no debt.

[Jordan]

I thought that CC has an expiration time while PC did not.  This prevents hoarding CC.  I also thought that the people who accept the CC are held accountable for the business's losses and there is no debt.

Granted, there is a time limit, I was being over-simplistic. 

In a digital coin world however I would imagine there would be electronic agents working for us to manage our holdings and trading them within a bourse automatically for optimal gain, so the end result is that you are unlikely to be stuck with expired CC.

I used the term debt loosely. Technically, CC is backed by goods or services. I was just implying what might happen if a trader goes out of business and will no longer offer goods or services in exchange for the CC that is already issued - in that scenario the trader would be obligated to replace their outstanding CC with other CC or PC at the current market value.

[GavinPalmer1984]

I was just implying what might happen if a trader goes out of business and will no longer offer goods or services in exchange for the CC that is already issued - in that scenario the trader would be obligated to replace their outstanding CC with other CC or PC at the current market value.

That makes sense.  Thank you.  I see the change to digital coin as being much better than our current system.

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My other pickle deals with the problems that continue into the new monetary system - which is that the current property owners have more opportunity to exploit the people without property.  I know you don't want to address such an issue - I am just venting.  The benefit of digital coin is that property owners are more free to innovate - improving society at a faster rate.  More people will be free to provide "real" charity instead of monetary charity.

How does this system get started?  At local communities by property owners?  Or international corporations?  Both?  What about the technological infrastructure?

[Seiko]

Btw, why Perpetual Coin is rather priced with by using national currency exchange rate instead with CPI? From what I know is 98% of currency exchange rate is representing speculative activities, not real trade. Although not 100%, CPI measures the changes of value of national currency.